The trial chamber is sitting today
to deliver its judgement in a case of the ???
Issa Hassan Sesay
the chamber finds with respect to the accused,
Issa Hassan Sesay, as follows:
Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of 15 years
into armed forces or groups - guilty.
Intentionally directing attacks against personnel involved
in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission - guilty.
Extermination, enslavement - guilty, guilty, guilty.
Acts of terrorism, murder, rape,
forced marriage, mutilation - guilty.
This is Freetown. On the surface, it is another bustling Westafrican city.
But child soldiers cut off people's limbs here.
There were cases of rape and cannibalism.
The list of atrocities is long and unbelievable.
Many people say that what happened here during the war was a visitation of evil.
The rebels say they're fighting government corruption.
Most Sierra Leonians think they simply want to grab power.
What were the RUF?
Was it an inherently criminal organisation,
or was it an organisation which...
contained a huge number of criminals?
You're better off knowing you're as close to the truth as you can get,
however horrible that truth might be.
Most of the world looked the other way.
It was not covered at all; very few people ever knew
what took place in Sierra Leone, and frankly, they still don't.
I had the priviledge, and frankly the honor of being the Chief Prosecutor
of the Special Court for Sierra Leone from 2002- 2005.
And throughout that time period, I got a chance to truly meet,
appreciate, respect,
the horror that the people of Sierra Leone went through.
The question is, is the justice we seek - the international community -
the justice they want?
So we can't just go into a particular area
and just assume that we have all the answers.
We have to sit back at first.
And that's why I literally walked that countryside for 3 years
just to listen.
Talking to people who - just several months before -
were killing each other.
They began to realise that this wasn't going to be a kangaroo court,
that this was going to be something for the people of Sierra Leone.
I got to know, respect, and frankly love, my victims.
Not so much in the sense of... overstepping my legal obligations,
but just knowing what they went through.
As I am describing to you now, I can still smell,
and taste, death.
That's important. Not because of anything other than the fact
that, frankly, it builds up a righteous fury. In you.
To seek justice.
I think whenever you get to know someone, in a limited way,
in a lawyer-client relationship,
and especially one where the client is incarcerated,
and fighting, literally, for his life.
Yeah, I mean, he's a... I'm very happy to have met him, actually,
he's a... an intelligent...
charming...
at times bad-tempered...
at times very angry... I mean, everything in a human being...
but, over all,
a man who I've come to like a lot, actually.
And but for these circumstances,
I could see no reason why we wouldn't have been friends.
I'm sure he's capable of many things.
And I'm sure anyone who fights in a war for 10 years
is capable of many things,
but how somebody is reflected in a prosecution allegation
rarely sums up an individual.
The way it happened here is,
Mr. Crane and his colleagues chose the people
they thought bore the greatest responsability.
And they sent out their investigators to find evidence in support of it.
You can't select this few people and expect
the historical narrative to be particularly balanced, or accurate.
Here we are today, about to commence yet another trial,
this time of the case involving the RUF group of indictees.
The mission of this court
and the resolve of the international community
is to bring an end to impunity,
and to contribute to the peace and reconciliation process
within Sierra Leone.
I would like to invite the prosecutor of the Special Court
to make an opening statement.
This is a tale of horror.
Beyond the Gothic, into the realm of Dante's Inferno.
These dogs of war, these hounds from hell,
unleashed by cynical, internal and external...
I object! I object, your honor! I would like to...
The objection is sustained.
You will limit your observations to the facts.
Please to the facts.
When I was giving my opening statement,
I can remember looking directly at Issa Sesay.
I didn't see anything.
It was the first time in my life
that I actually looked into the eyes of a human being
and realized: they have no soul.
The hairs in the back of my neck actually bristled.
From my point of view, it was almost a religious experience.
These war crimes indictees who now stand before this tribunal,
before this country, before mankind, to face justice,
were part of this union, this joint criminal enterprise.
Issa Sesay, battlefield commander and leader of the RUF,
Morris Kallon,
and Augustine Gbao,
these were the leaders, the commanders of an army of evil,
a corps of destroyers, and a brigade of executioners
bent on the criminal take-over of Sierra Leone.
Once the Athens of West Africa, today, due to these indictees,
a sodden backwater, barren and broken,
lapping against the shores of civilization.
This court began with a request from the president of Sierra Leone
to the United Nations.
The Sierra Leonian legal system was destroyed during the war,
and at that point didn't have the capacity to deal with these cases.
This court is all part of an international justice system
that really began at Nürnberg.
With the trials of the 22 Nazi leaders at the international military tribunal
and subsequent trials of German industrialists and German judges.
And this court was to be a new kind of court,
one that would enforce international criminal law
but would be a hybrid;
it would have its foundation both in the international system
and also in the domestic system
and have appointments from both the United Nations
and from the government of Sierra Leone.
My hair stood on edge.
I saw a huge quantity of human heads, decapitated, many, many of them,
there were so many skeletons, human bones, packed over each other.
The rebels surrounded the witness and took her right hand
and chopped it with a cutlass.
A rebel cut her right hand.
Four times.
And then cut her left hand four times.
Both hands were chopped off.
If you were responsible for the units in the field,
you'd get word that your forces were out there
raping and murdering civilians.
Your responsibility at that point is to...
essentially, to bring in those soldiers in and punish them.
Or, if you know they're about ready to go and do it,
you send an order into the field and say: Don't do that.
If, on the other hand, you have that knowledge and you don't act,
and you let it go forward, and you're constantly provided with notice
about how your men are conducting themselves in the field,
and you don't take action, then you're irresponsible.
Even though you didn't want them to do it.
You may be just a coward, at this particular stage of the game,
but that cowardice has criminal consequences.
What happened to one of the women, in particular?
They took a...
a pistol, and they thrust it in her vagina,
and it was there 'til morning.
I saw that with my own eyes.
How did the man have sexual intercourse with you?
He opened my legs and started forcing me to have sex with him.
He said, if I refused, he was going to kill me.
The prosecution's theory is, that there was a line of command
that went from identifiable subordinates, who were committing crimes, to Issa Sesay.
That he was in control, he was in communication,
he had a... knowledge of what was going on,
and didn't do anything to stop it,
and in some cases gave commands to promote it.
Can you describe, for the court, the conditions,
of what it was like to mine at this time?
No food. 200 people, 200 shovels.
No tiring. You can't rest. If you say you are tired,
there were smaller boys, short-short ones, some had guns they cannot carry,
if you say you are tired, they fire you and you are dead.
The people that were mining, in the pits, were they paid?
Even we, as says we're in charge of the mining, we were not paid.
Nobody was paid.
Forced labor's very significant for Issa Sesay.
This phenomenon of forced labor in Sierra Leone with the RUF only grew,
and the more territory that was taken over, the more forced labor that existed.
Who asked you to laugh?
Did you laugh?
Can you ask the lady, the welfare...
the welfare officer, to come in, please?
Close her mike.
Usually war's are started for religious, political, even economic, reasons.
Its a rare thing that you have wars and conflict started
for criminal purposes.
The Revolutionary United Front envoqued a great deal of fear and terror
in the hearts of the people of Sierra Leone.
What you're dealing with here, is individuals who were just thugs.
They weren't looking at this for political reasons.
That really wasn't why they had started this.
The fundamental root cause of the tragedy of Sierra Leone
was created by Foday Sankoh and Charles Taylor:
to take over the country so that it could be used to promote their goals.
It was greed, it was avarice.
Foday Sankoh went to Liberia and did work, initially,
with Charles Taylor.
And at some point then did lead the initial invasion into Sierra Leone.
I say invasion, because people say so at war,
but in reality, the war in Sierra Leone...
it was an attack from another country, it wasn't born right in Sierra Leone.
They came from Liberia.
The RUF is an organisation that's somewhat more complicated
than I think the popular perception is,
that the person fighting on the ground for the RUF
may have a very, very different opinion as to why they're fighting
versus a high-level commander.
Charles Taylor told Foday Sankoh that the people of Sierra Leone
would 'probably not be in support of you. '
'So, the best thing for you to do, is to enlist them. '
'And if they choose not to enlist, to take them,'
'and if they chose not to be taken, then to kill them. '
Over time, it became a philosophical tool of Foday Sankoh,
and then the Revolutionary United Front took a turn for the worse.
At some point the RUF started to become an organisation,
that - if they ever were trying to fight for a better government - that went away.
I think the leaders became particularly... power-hungry.
It happened to be that sometimes diamonds was the means for that.
And as they moved into Sierra Leone, they began what we saw throughout 10 years:
recruiting child soldiers, forcing women into the bush,
to be the famous 'bush wives',
killing, or amputating, Sierra Leoneans, their fellow citizens, to strike terror,
as the rule of law slipped silently into the gutter, and down the drain.
They did it because they could.
It was 'Mad Max, Thunderdome'. They just had fun doing it.
When you saw these things happening,
who was the top commander present?
When these things were happening to the civilians,
did any of the commanders try to stop them from happening?
Mr. Koker, which language did you give your statement in?
Was it a true and accurate reflection
of what you say happened?
Doing your best to be honest and truthful?
I suggest that you invented that today.
Because you are determined to implicate Issa Sesay as much as you can.
Can you repeat after me:
- I solemnly swear on the bible... - I solemnly swear on the bible...
- ... that I will speak the truth... - ... that I will speak the truth...
- ... the whole truth... - ... the whole truth...
- ... and nothing but the truth. - ... and nothing but the truth.
My name is Brigadier General John S. Tarnue,
former commanding general
of the armed forces of Liberia.
When I first started reading Tarnue...
He was the first witness that was going to be testifying to events
involving the historical aspect of this conflict.
Taylor told Sankoh that, 'Look, whenever you're fighting war,'
'the strength of any revolutions,
'it depends on the man power. '
They have to recruit whoever they meet:
old people, young people, young girls, young boys...
So, that's what they did.
A joint criminal enterprise is a criminal conspiracy,
that individuals meet, discuss, and consider
actions that could amount to international crimes.
And certainly it was THE basis
for my entire prosecution of these individuals,
was laying out that joint criminal enterprise.
You connect the dots.
The plan that was discussed was for Taylor
to provide arms to the RUF.
Which RUF leaders do you remember coming to Charles Taylor's executive mansion?
Part of the leadership high command,
then you have Augustine Gbao,
and you have Issa Sesay...
Now you say that they came there to get supplies.
Is that correct?
Well, ammunitions, arms, and there were rocket rounds.
I saw Sesay and some other people.
In the prosecution's opening speech they said anything:
'it's sometimes necessary to dance with the devil'.
Really, you want to say that it's not really so much 'dancing with the devil'
as, kind of, running off to Vegas with them and marrying them, you know.
They rely so heavily on insider witnesses.
And what you have in this case,
are some of the...
worst criminals in West Africa.
The court pays witnesses to testify,
that's true of the prosecution's and also true of the defense witnesses,
there's WVS, which pays out the most funds to witnesses
to cover their expenses, their travel to the court, anything that's legitimate.
But the prosecution also has its own budget, which the defense doesn't have,
which somehow funds witnesses.
You have, I suggest, every reason
to benefit from the luxury
of being a prosecution witness in this case.
I don't understand your own interpretation.
If you are trying to be a luxury, to defend the people
that have brought bloodless war on the people of Sierra Leone, I'm not.
- You are a war criminal! - I am not!
- You are a war criminal. - You...
You are a defense counsel for defending people that have brought
senseless war on harmless people.
And then you're standing there trying to antagonize me?
I have no idea how much money he got,
but, uh, he's being relocated.
And relocated into a prosperous
first world country.
And what did he do in order to earn that?
He led the invasion of Sierra Leone.
I was performing my job.
Let me answer... ask the question.
I was performing my job on a professional level, I didn't...
Listen. I'm referring to the people
who've paid you benefits in kind of up to about 90,000 $.
Who continue to pay you now.
Are you ordering me militarily, or are you trying to cross-examine me?
It's wrong. It's wrong that you've got someone like him
who'd buy his own admission
who was the overall training commandant
of battalions of SBUs, the Small Boy Units,
and Yellow Jackets, which was the female equivalent,
children below the age of 16, or 15.
You have your profession, I have my profession.
- Is the... - You're supposed to respect me, counsellor!
- Witness, please! - Yes, sir?
- Please! - I'm sorry, chief.
- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. - And Mr. Cammegh as well, please.
Let me put this to you:
You know full well that if it wasn't for those...
- Counsellor, I don't know... - Listen!
I'm not listening!
Have you got to order me? I'm not your...
If it wasn't for those people, you would be dead!
You want to kill me? Go ahead!
- But if I wasn't sensible enough... - Witness! Mr. Kenbe...
- ... I would have been dead. - ... I'm not sure where you want to arrive
and where you're trying to get at with these kinds of...
- ... obstructions. Please! - I would be dead.
If you want to kill me, go ahead! I am prepared for any eventuality.
That's why I decided to testify openly.
It has to stop somewhere.
Wherever in a court room or a market place.
In any large prosecution, you're going to have individuals
who are near the center, or the heartbeat, of the joint criminal enterprise.
And that they may be essential to proving your case.
But these individuals that you're talking to
are also very bad people.
And you have to choose which of them you're going to prosecute,
and which ones you're gonna deal with.
And that's why I call it 'dancing with the devil',
because these individuals are not perfect individuals.
This institution is completely paranoid
about anybody examining the darker corners of how it works.
When I pointed out to the trial chamber
that a particular witness has received four times their annual salary
in the space of the three months -
the trial chamber doesn't seem interested in it.
I think any process which isn't prepared to examine itself, is fundamentally flawed.
You have such a... impetus
towards convicting everybody before the court.
And that doesn't lend itself to a truth-finding process.
If this is a system which there is an attempt to get close to a truth,
I think you get a greater chance to get close to the truth
working on the side of the defense.
Representing people who've had extreme lives
you have to have some empathy with 'the human condition'.
I mean, if everything seems hopeless, if you seem so... poor,
if there is no prospect of becoming... richer,
so that you can support your family,
and provide yourself with the basics, then...
the choice between picking up a gun or remaining in the dust...
I'm not sure that should be so difficult
for people to understand.
There were good reasons for this war -
which isn't the same thing as justifying the crimes that were committed in it.
Here, for me it had been obvious, how, for a long time, poverty...
you know, why should a poor person, who has been deprived of basic amenities,
things which we take for granted,
then be expected to... phase in with society.
What I... I come from a poor background,
a working-class community in the North of England,
where people don't generally go to university and...
Although it wasn't desperate poverty like in some places,
it was still a place which was poor enough for it to matter,
for it to prevent people from advancing and achieving, becoming,
you know, something more than what their circumstances defined.
With my family, also, then. And...
I wouldn't want to be back there.
It's my priviledge to stand before you
to finally introduce Mr. Sesay and his defense case.
A man who has waited patiently for the opportunity
to explain, in his own words,
why he is innocent of these heinous charges.
The explanation you will hear from Mr. Sesay may well seem surprising at first.
For much of what you've heard about this conflict
is based on rumour, fable, and folklore.
- I solemnly swear on the bible... - I swear by the bible...
- that I'll speak the truth... - I talk the truth...
- and nothing but the truth. - nothing but the truth.
- Go ahead, counsellor. - Thank you.
You were born in Freetown, is that right?
Yes.
What date were you born on?
And you attended school until when?
So, what did you do?
What nationality was he?
What did he say to you?
Did you want to be trained?
So why did you not leave?
Now... Who was Pa Morloi?
You were appointed the battle group commander
of the RUF.
As the battle group commander,
you were superior to everyone in the RUF
except for the battlefield commander and the leader.
Do you agree that you were a senior commander in the RUF?
The question was just slightly different.
I'd put it to you that you agreed that you
were one of the SENIOR commanders of the RUF.
Is that true, Mr. Sesay? It's a simple question.
Follow the question, Mr. Sesay, would you?
You were one of the senior commanders. Were you, or were you not?
Those were your assignments:
you were the commander responsible for the killing
of civilians in Sierra Leone.
You're the commander responsible for child soldiers.
Their abduction, their use.
You're the commander reponsible for the abduction and raping of women. Correct?
That concludes the questions.
I think it's a mistake in this conflict to think
there's 'bad guys' and 'good guys'.
It's really complex.
Simply by virtue of being member of a group you can
then become liable for crimes in places that you would have no ability to prevent.
I think he's got... He's got a really good case, a really interesting case.
And from the point of the RUF it's not...
it's not a case about 'Did Sesay do something',
or 'Did Sesay order something?',
it's really predominantly a case about how the RUF as an organization worked.
Now, the RUF is not a very sophisticated organization in terms of...
it obviously had logistical difficulties in communicating.
So, the fact is, that these groups
probably operated with a large degree of independence.
The prosecution is trying to show that Issa was in the high command of the RUF.
And their idea of the RUF is that it functions
like almost any other military organization,
and that Sesay, because of his position, was aware of everything that was going on.
They think that the RUF is a conventional army,
that orders flow from the top
through all the different commanders down to the ground level,
and then reports flew from the ground level
all the way back up through the chain of command to the top.
Then it's not a very complicated tour, it's really easy, that's how armys work,
but, you know, if you think the RUF movement is a guerilla army,
it had disparate areas of command, it had personal enmities and loyalties
between different commanders, the system of ordering becomes
much more difficult to understand, or difficult to trace.
It's no so much that we oppose the prosecution factually,
but we have a very different perspective from the prosecution.
And it really comes from your idea of what the RUF is.
He gave you salt, he gave you cigarettes,
he gave others as well, you know.
And to other people?
The prosecution alleged he was a nasty man,
and terrorizes civilians... Then, surely it is a defense to say:
Well, actually, every day and every week and every month
has was doing his best to protect civilians.
What kind of things did he do?
They would take care of the medicines,
they would ensure that we have medicines at the hospital.
They were used to treat civilians and soldiers.
The RUF had a reasonably developed health care system
given the fact it took place in a war.
That's very difficult to parry with the idea of a brutal organisation,
a criminal organisation with no ideology.
The fact that it had free medical care to civilians and to fighters.
It had anti-natal units.
Were you taught any ideology or faith?
This rather scrappy-looking book
is an ideology book which contains
the basic tenants of RUF ideology,
covering everything from what the RUF is fighting for,
laws in place in the occupied territories,
and definitions concerning the role of different units
within the RUF.
Who were making farms?
Who was the boss of the government farm?
Despite the fact that on certain occasions - perhaps on a public relations basis,
perhaps to pacify the local population -
people were treated a little better under Issa Sesay's leadership,
those kinds of rules were violated as just a matter of systematic practice.
As a general rule, the tactics of the RUF
under his leadership and throughout this period
were characterized by mistreatment of civilians,
exploitation of civilians,
and by what was evidently a campaign
to intimidate people into supporting the RUF.
I'm afraid I didn't get that. Operation what?
- Operation 'Spare no soul'? - Yes.
You sound quite proud of the fact
that you would be sparing no Sierra Leonian souls, Lieutenant Collins.
So far, Lieutenant Collins, it seems to me as if
it is mostly Sierra Leonians you have been killing.
- Good afternoon, Mr. Sesay. - Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Jordash.
Let's deal with the dying days of the RUF.
What happened at the meeting?
I didn't see, you know, a 'killer' in the eyes of Issa Sesay.
I felt that I would probably, you know, play a role
in turning this country around,
in other words: helping the country to get back on its feet.
That was my motivation.
I solemnly swear on the bible that I will speak the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
When I talked to him,
he showed respect to me as an elder.
He looked to me very honest; he knew what he wanted to do.
He may have been an excellent - I don't know -
or a good field commander,
but in my view,
he didn't have very much political acumen.
When he was 29 years old, he disarmed an entire rebel movement.
For no personal benefit,
for no real benefit other than to bring peace to Sierra Leone
because he was ???.
He didn't negotiate the release of Sankoh, which actually I find odd,
even from my point of view.
I think I did know Issa Sesay.
I could see what he wanted was
to get the country back on its feet.
He wanted to be with his family, like everybody else.
He wanted to be the person who would finish the war.
His motivations for doing this?
I think seizing power is very, very enticing for a lot of people.
And I think that attraction to power was something very strong for Sesay;
and at some point that meant, to some degree, pushing disarmament.
I don't think it was a benevolent action.
If you could just start off by just telling us who you are.
When you say 'former', why do you say 'former'?
Well, at the moment I feel absolutely sick and tired of the whole thing, actually.
I don't think this court can do the job it's required to do.
You have to get convictions to justify the amount of money that has been spent.
Wrap that in the huge emotion which characterizes these types of crimes,
it's difficult for that process, the prosecution case, to be a ??? one.
Which is a shame, because it's not actually impossible.
Sensible prosecuting, sensible indictments, sensible investigation,
a sensible idea that...
individuals are not evil or good,
but may fall somewhere in the middle,
then you may have a process which can make fine distinctions,
which can explore, which can describe accurately rather than demonizing.
To my mind, there's little prospect you're going to get close to the truth
except if the defense do a good job
and except if anyone's listening to the defense case.
My Lords, it has been a long search for the truth.
But today at last, the accused are here as convicts.
Sentencing is about punishment.
It is true punishment, and deterrance,
that an international criminal tribunal
contributes to peace and reconciliation.
The prosecution request for 60 years is simply...
continuant of the process of demonization.
It seeks to hold Mr. Sesay responsible for the crimes of all the RUF
rather than individualizing the sentence.
Mr. Sesay, we are prepared to hear you.
I cannot predict the sentence,
and I cannot predict how he'll react to it.
Human beings have the fantastic capacity for hope and optimism
in the face of evidence which suggests
that those hopes are totally misplaced.
You know, I think that there is some small factors,
some conduct there that does deserve recognition.
But it's a relatively small counterweight given the gravity of these crimes.
Given the immense effect that they had
on the lives of tens of thousands of human beings.
If he is sentenced to 60 years,
then he spends the rest of his life in prison,
and I think all our endeavors will have failed.
People do get emotionally bound up with the individuals,
you start seeing them, sometimes, as the victim,
and ignoring those thousands that you don't meet.
And it's certainly my job as a prosecutor to pass the light back the other way.
Charge chamber 1 of the Special Court for Sierra Leone
now delivers its sentencing judgment.
In the case of? and Issa Hassan Sesay,
the chamber recognizes that in situations of protracted armed conflicts,
where peace can be fragile,
all efforts must be made to encourage its preservation.
The chamber finds that the defense have proved mitigating circumstances on the basis
of Sesay's real and meaningful catalysis
of the peace process in Sierra Leone
following his appointment as interim leader of the RUF.
The chamber will now proceed to deliver its sentencing verdict.
Mr. Issa Hassan Sesay, please stand.
For acts of terrorism,
sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 52 years.
For extermination, a crime against humanity,
a sentence of a term of imprisonment of 35 years.
For murder, a crime against humanity,
sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 40 years.
For rape, a crime against humanity,
sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 45 years.
Sexual slavery, 45 years.
Mutilation, 50 years.
Conscripting, or enlisting, children under the age of 15 years,
into armed forces or groups: 50 years.
Enslavement, a crime against humanity, 50 years.
Intentionally directing attacks against personnel involved
in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission:
sentenced to a term of imprisonment of 51 years.
The court orders that these sentences shall run and be served concurrently.
Be seated, Mr. Sesay.
A very good morning to you
and a warm welcome to our Thursday's edition of Tea Break,
I am Mamaji Goubekma.
All in the studio with me this morning is Wayne Jordash,
he is the lead defense counsel for Issa Sesay.
And also prosecutor for the special court, Mr. Stephen Rapp.
The outcome shows that the defense lost its case.
How do you feel about this?
Obviously, it's deeply disappointing that this court
doesn't appear to have conducted
the necessary enquiry into the evidence.
And if one reads the judgment, one can see it is basically
the highlights of the prosecution case.
A trial is not a sporting event like a football match,
it's not a game where if the pros...
if the defense plays its game very, very well,
that it deserves to win.
It's search for the truth. And if individuals are guilty,
they deserve, at the end of the day, to be found guilty.
Issa Sesay participated in the peace process and for that he deserves credit,
and his sentence was reduced from what it otherwise would have been because of that.
But let's not forget that that was late, that was after the conflict
that went on for years, and years, and years.
And that participation does not negate
the responsibility for these grave and heinous acts.
Stephen talks about all these crimes,
but they have to be linked to the accused.
I'm not asking for him to be acquitted.
I'm asking for something other than 'guilt by association'.
What kind of message do we send now to commanders such as Mr. Sesay,
out there in Uganda, out there in Sudan,
about what happens to you when you participate with the peace process:
You'll get a reduction in sentence,
but you'll still spend the rest of your life in prison.
The message that it sends is if you commit this kind of horrendous crimes
you're going to face consequences.
And that's what's absolutely critical,
and why this is historic, and why this is important
unto the future peace and development of this country,
and to the future peace and development of the whole world.
But the idea that somehow Issa Sesay can be divorced from the organization
that he supports and keeps in the field,
that's not the kind of thing that we would accept
in the case of any other kind of criminal conduct.
That the clear message that needs to be sent
is that these kind of crimes can't be tolerated
for the sake of the victims, those tens of thousands
of people who died or were maimed here in Sierra Leone.
Justice has been done.
So, are you going to appeal?
We'll appeal each and every charge and count, yes.
Anything else? Did I miss anything?
Cleaning the office.
What else?
I'm feeling we've missed something, but I can't think what it is.
Have we missed anything?
Did you forget to pack your ticket?
Now that's one thing I'm not forgetting.
- I'll sure be on that plane. - Yeah.
You're taking the helicopter tomorrow night?
No, I'm not.
Well, I mean, my naive hopes - and I still have some of that
'one day I'll see him free and I'll... '
be able to take him for a drink and have dinner with him.
The reality is that I think that will probably not happen.
My hopes for international criminal law is that
we find another way.
These institutions have persuaded themselves
that they are mechanisms to write history.
What a fallacy is that.
The idea, that international community can come in
and through the wisdom of their judges
can educate the population in their history...
I mean, the arrogance is astonishing.
This court has been a success. The system, of course, is never perfect.
Never discourages all crimes, always a work in progress
in terms of the fairness and transparency in which it's conducted.
But it's that effort, and that continued effort
to improve and to send a message,
that if you do these kinds of crimes, you're going to face consequences.